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Oscalantine
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PostSubject: KingIsaac's invention debate   Fri Aug 12, 2011 6:10 am

(( ooc: I must call future on this issue. Antimatter is indeed developed but the issue of instantaneous decay in matter of nanoseconds as well as containing the antimatter from touching matter before detonation is impossible with today's science.

As I said before... Unless there is either working prototype or if you can state valid reasoning behind it... It is considered future. Not to mention... Production of even a particle of antimatter requires ridiculous amount of energy. The infrastructure needed to produce the antimatter is also crazy... With current technology production requires hadron colider the size of a small city... i.e. CERN.

Even if the tech is possible, the whole crap can only be even thought of with only the Econ level that of Isis Rakael. Even oscal cannot produce such technology alone. And for KI to be able to develop such tech while gaining military insallation and embargoing an econ-based nation is unrealistic.


All in all... Address these claims or change your WMD. If you wish to argue about antimatter... Take it to the desk of innovation and we will see if we can have this technology.))


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PostSubject: KingIsaac's invention debate   Fri Aug 12, 2011 8:17 am

[I'm thinking of switching to orbital weapons instead, but nothing is clear yet. It's just that I like the idea of antimatter.

May I remind you about the movie "Angels and Demons"(I know it's fiction but what we're doing here is also fiction) where a lab discovered the antimatter bomb.

Anyway, when I clear my mind, I'll say if I'm for space weapon or antimatter weapon]

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PostSubject: Re: KingIsaac's invention debate   Fri Aug 12, 2011 8:45 am

You gotta give us a link to one being underdevelopment in real life. As far as I know, there aren't any and the closest thing to antimatter is the hadron collider and it's nowhere near being able to be weaponized. You can't base anything off of a movie because, well, it's a movie. Especially one called "Angels and Demons". So, I'm saying no to antimatter weapons and orbital bombardment until I see some real life sources for them.
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PostSubject: Re: KingIsaac's invention debate   Fri Aug 12, 2011 8:50 am

Actually we do have the ability to at least detect antimatter.

In the news just very recently, IE within the past few days, they discovered a massive (or, should I say, anti-massive?) ring of anti-matter orbiting the Earth. Since it doesn't just explode when coming into contact with the abundant matter in orbit around Earth, then it must actually be a difficult process to force anti-matter and matter to interact, instead of keeping them apart.

Which brings up the issue of "production" of anti-matter. Not only would there be vast quantities in the universe to extrapolate from, they would likely exist in abundance within the orbit of Tiberiam. Even if it didn't, you are incorrect in assuming that antimatter or at least antiparticles can only be produced in massive particle accelerators; positrons (the antiparticle of electrons) have been produced simply by passing a laser through the nuclei of a gold atom.

That it isn't to say it wouldn't be prohibitively expensive to produce it, using modern technology. It is the costliest material to produce, costing about $25 billion per gram. Of course, it is an incredibly potent material, and only a billionth of a gram of antimatter has ever been required for scientific use in the history of science.

Additionally, antimatter-matter reactions are actually used on a daily basis in most cities around the world. Have you ever had a PET scan? That would be a positron emission tomography scan. Positrons, as I mentioned earlier, are the antiparticles of electrons. So antimatter-matter reactions are actually used across the world in most hospitals.

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PostSubject: Re: KingIsaac's invention debate   Fri Aug 12, 2011 9:11 am

Alright... I split this debate to office of SoC.

Firstly... let me DEFINE what it means to harness the power of antimatter.

Basically... I did some research ^^


Okay, here goes...

Antimatter is indeed the most powerful weapon of mass destruction as well as power source that humanity can imagine. It converts 100% of matter (and antimatter) into energy. It has already been discovered several years ago by CERN. CERN has since then been successful in creating Anti-hydrogen and other atoms in antimatter form.

Btw, I did read Angels and Demons. I know what you are dreaming about. I know that it is THEORETICALLY possible... but here are limitations.

What is stopping humanity from creating antimatter bombs and the likes?

FIRSTLY.... ridiculous cost. It costs roughly $25 billion to create ONE GRAM of antimatter. And that is not including infrastructure cost. Now, let's see the infrastructure. Okay... I wrote things hasty in my above post. It isn't hadron collider. It is... Low Energy Antiproton Ring. Now, let me tell you that there is only ONE of this in the RL world. The cost of this is... well, you tell me. It accelerates particles to nearly the speed of light in order to create enough heat for particles (NOT atoms) into different spin... yeah... the power cost as well as the infrastructure cost to keep that particle "spinning" to gain that heat is ridiculous. And that is only step one of three step process. Next step is to cool the antiparticle enough that it can fuse into something more usable. We only can only produce antihydrogen at this state. So... you cool it and then in step 3, you fuse it into one whole antiproton. Now THAT is the antimatter that you speak of... possible of bringing massive bang.

Oh and I forgot... antiparticle is one thing... it is whole another thing to fuse it into an antiproton. NASA estimates that the cost of the damn thing is... roughly $62.5 trillion per gram of antihydrogen. That was 1999. Place inflation as you see fit.

Now, that is ONLY FOR MAKING ANTIMATTER. Now we have to figure out how to store it. The only known way to store antimatter (shown in the book) is to create pure vacuum and use electromagnetic field to store it. What the book didn't tell you is the cost. Firstly, electromagnetism isn't magic. It requires antimatter inside to ALL have the same charge. Afterwards, it needs to suspend the antimatter right in the middle without being affected by gravity. In other words... a lot of calculation, and a lot of cost. Not to mention creating absolute vacuum is difficult in its own right. Now we are talking about changing the charge of the damn thing... sure it is do-able. But again... plenty of research and plenty of cash.



So... yeah... 62.5 trillion dollars. That is more than Oscalantine's RP GDP. That is more more than half of KI's NATIONSTATES GDP.

So I ask you...
Where is the money coming from?











Now... orbital weapon.

KI, there was only.... and I mean ONLY I MEANT ONLY... one country that ever asked and ever got orbital bombardment program out of me. That was Isis. After about a... three day debate on restrictions, careful historical analysis, and then the ridiculous cost as well as 5 year full construction domestic RP planning... he got it.

Hijima got scolded by yours truly when he wanted to get orbital weapon. Well... his was missile on a satellite. Regardless...

If there was EVER in my rightful mind that I will approve orbital weapons platform, it will be ONLY to Rasvidi, and no one else. And even IF he got the weapon out of me, I will make SURE that his credit rating dropped so low that he will have to disband some of his military branches.

The reason is as follows...

  • cost: ridiculous cost of it all. Probably only nation in the ENTIRE NS that can make this is probably along in the Isis level or higher. I doubt that anyone in Tiberiam currently has any ability to fund this weapon.
  • physics: you will have to solve the major factor that if an orbital system drops something with ANY kind of weight, its speed changes. If the speed changes, the orbital platform falls to the ground due to gravity or shoots up into the space, never to be seen again. Mostly it is death by burning in the atmosphere. The reason why Hubble Space Telescope has to be readjusted using astronomical cost is because of this.... that and the wear and tear that I'll explain later. Now... weapons system is FIRING something (missile, rock, etc.), which means that it will need to readjust itself by using boosters. That would mean that trip to space needs to be done regularly to repair as well as refuel the station.


Now... with that said, it is within realism to have orbital weapon. The reason why RL doesn't have it is because no one can afford it. But Tiberiam with its ridiculous military budget should be able to. And not to mention... we don't have moral standards that RL folks do. After all, it is just a game.

However, those two problems needs to be faced. You need LOTS of money and you need LOTS of experience with space. In Tiberiam... including the legacy of previous RP... the only person with that kind of experience is Ras. And with someone backing him up... maybe Jenny writes a check to her entire treasury or something... then Ras CAN make the weapons platform in the air.

Now... why I suggest against this even though it is possible? Well... the method to shoot down this weapon is DEAD EASY.

Anyone with a brain and a missile can do it. Seriously. Just shoot up an ICBM into space. It can be just a rock, actually. Anything that moves its orbit just a slightest can shoot it down. Easy, simple, and no need for ridiculous cost. Just use the one that you have lying around in your military base somewhere. In order to counter this, orbital weapons platform needs a reliable defense to intercept the missiles. You can either have billions of interception rockets... which not only weighs the weapon down and will need for orbital weapons to relocate itself... but it is limited in ammo. So... after like... ten, maybe... or so ICBMs, the orbital weapons platform can be shot down. And that is IF you are willing to form up another trillion to attach weighty crap and another trillions to shoot the parts up into the space (since now the orbital weapon weighs too much and is too large to fit into one rocket) and assemble it in space. Now let me tell you... that is illogical for any country to do so, seeing as how orbital weapon is just ridiculous in cost to begin with.

So... there is only two reliable way to protect your orbital weapon if that is the case: guaranteed ridiculous military retaliation or thermal laser.

Isis has the former. His military number surpassed most of the Tiberiam's population. Even if Oscal armed every man and child with a weapon of some sort, Isis's army will probably outmatch them. THAT kind of military strength keeps your wad of cash floating in the air. KI? Honestly, if Oscal shot down the weapon in order to remove KI's "big brother" plan, what will KI do? War? Oh yes, full-on war even WITH Ras helping you (which I have to doubt for some reason...) is going to cost you a lot.

Thermal laser is only other option that I could come up with. It only uses electricity, so extra battery and better solar cells will do the trick. It intercepts incoming projectiles without losing too much weight (nanograms at the best). So there is no need to shift weights... and if you need to, it won't be that bad. But you know as much as I do who owns thermal laser. And you can bet you ass who won't give it to you (just considering country's hostility between KI and Oscal ^^)



Actually... Isis and Oscal's plan was to install thermal network in Isis's bomb, while Isis guarantees Oscal's corporate interest. So Isis's weapon was more along the lines of WIP than anything.




I would like to conclude this with a friendly note: I am not trying to be mean on purpose... Only... I want to stop startrek before it comes out. If I approve antimatter... that would mean that I also approve nuclear fusion, rail gun, cold plasma, and sway of other stuffs that will be discovered before a legit method to create antimatter comes out.

Now, I COULD approve orbital weapon. Now you blow trillions upon trillions into the project. Your credit rating drops. You then shoot the station up. Oscal intercepts it. End of story, world war begins. With KI so low on cash from making orbital weapon, the result of obvious... if Ras enters in KI's side... maybe it is less obvious. But ultimately the war is going to be between Ras and Oscal, while KI appears every now and then without ammo or something. I can approve the orbital weapon, but I want to save you from the disappointment of it all.



All and any news that I don't know about antimatter that will change the story COMPLETELY can be said here. And as for orbital... well, it was Isis's Idea, so I won't give you exclusive privilege. However, you WILL need to have a full military alliance with Ras in order to even begin this project. And then we have problems with who owns that weapon in space... and such and such... while both of your countries starves due to lack of capital. Oscal laughs at both countries while it readjusts a single ICBM and shoots it up. Boom. Gone. Years of work (RP time) and cash. Gone. KI and Ras retaliates, but there is no more funding left in neither of their defense budget. Onesided victory by Oscal, and Oscal rules the world. It is pretty much obvious.

Orbital weapon (kinetic bombardment system in its full name) was only approved to Isis BECAUSE only Isis could make it and get away with it. Any other countries making this is... well, signing its own demise... let's just put it at that.

Of course... when worst comes to worst, I see no problem with all THREE of the countries blowing half of their defense budget each into orbital weapon platform to stop Isis or some random country of choice. Now that will be an impressive tale to tell. (although I cannot help but to feel that Oscal will be funding most of the project... T^T)
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PostSubject: Re: KingIsaac's invention debate   Fri Aug 12, 2011 9:29 am

Osca, be realistic.

Do you think the whole annual budget of my country will be focused on that? Of course not! Only 20% or something. I know that if I give all my money, I can build a space weapon in 5 years(RP). But because of the budget system, it will take me ten to fifteen years. In that way, I still have the weapon, I still have my defense budget, although it will just take me much longer than expected.

You get my point?

Now that I did some research in antimatter weapons, I realized all nations in Tiberiam COMBINED cannot afford it, even after a year in RL. So I'm giving it up, but not the space idea.

Now, about your ICBM shooting my space weapon, have you ever heard of A-35 anti-ballistic missile system? Search it. Besides, I can spend on spaceships guarding my space weapon.

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PostSubject: Re: KingIsaac's invention debate   Fri Aug 12, 2011 9:32 am

Be sure to get Chewbacca on that.
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PostSubject: Re: KingIsaac's invention debate   Fri Aug 12, 2011 9:46 am

15 RP years? That is... well... 5 RP day is 1 RL day... so...

3 RL years? Are you sure that you are wanting to wait THAT long? Sounds like a long-term project that will never finish.

Alright, your defense measures...
A-35 is impressive measure but ONLY if the satellite is around your country. Keep in mind that the satellites turns in orbit. So waiting until the precise moment to shoot up an ICBM can prevent your defense from intercepting the ICBM.
And spaceships... unless you are planning on using them as a sacrifice whenever a new ICBM is launched (like a human mean shield ^^), it is moot point. The law of physics follows space ships as much as satellites do. Once it launches... whatever... it needs to re-accelerate back into orbit. And do you know how much one space shuttle costs? $1.7 billion. Now how much does it cost to launch them into air? $450 million.

Erm... the problem with money comes here again.

I am not saying that you cannot have awesome weapon... just... just find one that isn't sci-fi. There are plenty out there that are awesome and have been field tested. Or you can go with classic nuke. I am simply giving your technical limitations, not bitching about KI having a better weapon than anyone else...

Fyi... Isis and I "fought" for nearly five days before I yielded that he had enough capital, manpower, resources, and ability to get kinetic bombardment system. All over in TG... and you know how much Isis was into RP... -.-... he was tough debate partner.
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PostSubject: Re: KingIsaac's invention debate   Fri Aug 12, 2011 9:51 am

Oh, wait. not 3 RL years. 2 RL MONTHS would be acceptable.

Yes, I'll sacrifice spaceships. They will be "human shield", as you call it. Those spaceships will follow the weapon wherever it goes, and when one get's broken(whether caused by you or other countries or just a malfunction), the weapon will automatically fire at you Razz

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PostSubject: Re: KingIsaac's invention debate   Fri Aug 12, 2011 10:22 am

We're assuming Tiberiam technology and economic costs are identical to Earth, which it's not. Space Shuttles cost $1.7 billion because NASA a bureaucratic mess of red tape that inflates costs of all it's projects immensely. They did good with the moon landings, but they have been coasting on it ever since. It is because of NASA that space exploration has been retarded over the past several decades, and it is because of NASA we won't be seeing any hard space exploration for at least 20 years. Operating costs are a fraction of what NASA asks for in countries like China and Russia, who will easily overcome the US as spacefaring powers over the next 10 years.

And again, the anti-matter costs are so high simply because it requires a shitload of technology, with very very limited demand. Nobody except a very small, miniscule portion of society even wants anti-matter, or really even knows what it is. If a government decides to focus on development of such technology, in the real world it would be trivial to bring the cost down to manageable levels in just a few years time. The only reason it hasn't already, is because there simply isn't a demand.

And why would you need a gram? A gram of anti-matter would produce so much energy that there is no device in existence that could possibly need it all, or even a fraction of it. Hell, even a weapon made with just a gram of anti-matter would make Hiroshima look like a fire cracker.

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PostSubject: Re: KingIsaac's invention debate   Fri Aug 12, 2011 10:29 am

OK. I'm not really expert when it comes to those areas(red tapes) because I don't live in US.

But I can say Ras has a good point.

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PostSubject: Re: KingIsaac's invention debate   Fri Aug 12, 2011 1:06 pm

Well...

I do admit that NASA is a mess. However, the cost seems to be there... especially if KI considers the employee benefits. Do keep in mind that US actually CARES about the workers to some degree. In fact, many of the Western countries do so, and thus it is counted as their cost. Meanwhile, China doesn't care about their civil rights and treats their people like shit. If KI cares about their people as much as they say that they do... most likely the cost will remain where NASA has.

As for antimatter.... well, KI can vouch for me on this... or refute me when I am wrong... but in the book, didn't Brown say that 7 grams of antimatter could blow away Vatican City? That being said, you need MORE than a gram to blow up the entire city. In short... I suppose you should never underestimate the antimatter but you shouldn't overestimate it either. It converts matter into pure energy... 100%. That's it. It is good source of energy because it is most efficient (I believe that fossil fuels stays around 3% or something low like that). But it isn't the most effective weapon, per se. Nuclear weapon is much more deadly weapon as radiation could affect generations, not a mere massacre. Kinetic bombardment can achieve similar results as Antimatter but with less cost (well... you gotta admit, getting something into orbit and dropping it costs less than changing the charge of atom completely.). So... all in all... unless a different method is created, antimatter is woefully inefficient weapon. But great energy of tomorrow if someone invents a better way to harness the antimatter the right way (I think that only... like 1/1000 of antimatter is captured when produced using the current method or something)



And using shuttles for meat shield... KI, unless you are loaded as well as having automated weapons platform... you will not be received well by the public. Letting your people go out there in space only to be drifting in outer space... I am more and more thinking that you are dictatorship than constitutional monarchy, dude... or recently, constitutional republic, right?
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PostSubject: Re: KingIsaac's invention debate   Fri Aug 12, 2011 1:23 pm

By the way I just want to point out, making a weapons platform in space is a trivial accomplishment and not nearly as expensive as you seem to believe. Both the soviets and Americans had the capabilities since at least the 1950's, the only reason space isn't full of weapons right now is because the nations of Earth have agreed to keep space for peaceful purposes.

And, don't kid yourself, that is the only reason Earth orbit isn't cluttered with mobile weapon platforms. Cost has nowt to do with it.

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PostSubject: Re: KingIsaac's invention debate   Fri Aug 12, 2011 9:28 pm

Ok. I debated on this even while I was sleeping.

I'll just shift to Space Weapons(which I would make more powerful than Nuclear Weapons). It is easier to build(and more realistic) than an antimatter. We know very little about antimatter, and we barely understand it, so how can we use it?

I will NEVER let this space project ruin my economy and military budget. I will only allot 20% of my defense budget and 20% of my education budget in the project, to speed things up.

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PostSubject: Re: KingIsaac's invention debate   Fri Aug 12, 2011 9:40 pm

I edited now my post in the National forum about the weapon. Instead of antimatter, it's now space weapon.

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PostSubject: Re: KingIsaac's invention debate   Fri Aug 12, 2011 10:53 pm

Actually....

okay, one thing for certain... the people underestimate the budget that the US and Soviet had during their arms race. It is PLAUSIBLE for anyone to have space weapons. However, the fact of the matter stays that there are difficult to upkeep. Having something floating that shoots itself down? It is a weapon... very expensive, inefficient weapon... but a good weapon nonetheless. Now THOSE will be ridiculously cheap. And any country cane make those.

Now, if we are talking about Kinetic Bombardment Platform... the one up to the standard of Isis's... we have a different story. That is an MODERN technology. It has the blast range greater than that of nuclear weapon, as it literally drops down a meteor. It is unstoppable even with thermal laser... of course, the trajectory can be changed using thermal network if aimed correctly. And all with this it is very "clean" weapon... no radiation, no poison side effects. Simple, clean, MASSIVE bomb. That is what Isis had. Now THAT, my friend, takes A LONG time to research... for quite a bit of reasons...

Firstly, KI never had a space legacy. I will honor space legacy even from the old RPs... and I have yet to find one that KI said that he had a space program. Therefore, you will need to create a new budget and start a program from the get-go.

Secondly... you do realize that the moment that these things go into orbit, it can be just as easily shot down still, right? Unless you can construct two launch platforms, create a space shuttle (which you cannot due to your lack of space research...), and THEN you have ONE chance to intercept the ICBM with one of your space shuttle. Afterwards, it is same game.

I think what you did wrong, KI, is that while you gained respect of Ras, you were not able to get respect of Oscal in this. If you instead decided to start a space research program and THEN transfer into space militarization program (which should be the steps, since space militarization must happen AFTER a good space research foundation should be there), Oscal would've given you at least some support. Also keep in mind that the Oscal has the largest infotech sector... an industry that you WILL need unless you want to reinvent the wheel. All in all, you pissing off Oscal while you want to create a space weapon depot is a bit unwise. However... I guess I have no qualms of approving your weapon based on those claims.

Just saying, though... Ras, space weapon IS INDEED expensive. It is EVEN MORE expensive now that KI needs to reinvent EVERYTHING... including space research station. It will be EVEN MORE expensive as Oscal will try to disrupt the project. So... if anything, KI, try to improve the international relations by sort of "succumbing" to so-called "international pressure" and lift some steam between nations before you start this project ^^
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PostSubject: Re: KingIsaac's invention debate   Fri Aug 12, 2011 11:17 pm

I will use E's space researches

http://tiberiam.forums-free.info/t146-ministry-of-outer-space-aeronautics

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PostSubject: Re: KingIsaac's invention debate   Fri Aug 12, 2011 11:25 pm

There we go... a valid reasoning.

I would still suggest that you do something about the relationship between Oscal and KI, but that is minor in detail. I have already approved orbital bombardment system... and within the span on 1 month, I expect full domestic posts (perhaps once a week ^^Wink logging your progress. I will do the same, actually, logging my progress to create thermal network.
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PostSubject: Re: KingIsaac's invention debate   Fri Aug 12, 2011 11:27 pm

Oscalantine wrote:
There we go... a valid reasoning.

I would still suggest that you do something about the relationship between Oscal and KI, but that is minor in detail. I have already approved orbital bombardment system... and within the span on 1 month, I expect full domestic posts (perhaps once a week ^^Wink logging your progress. I will do the same, actually, logging my progress to create thermal network.

Have you read my posts?

I already did something about Ki-Oscal relationship. I have a plan, you know.
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PostSubject: Re: KingIsaac's invention debate   Sat Aug 13, 2011 12:17 am

XDDDD good luck and have fun ^^
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PostSubject: Re: KingIsaac's invention debate   Sat Aug 13, 2011 9:29 am

KingIsaac wrote:
I will use E's space researches

http://tiberiam.forums-free.info/t146-ministry-of-outer-space-aeronautics
Yes. Finally something more interesting to launch than a mere satellite.
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PostSubject: Re: KingIsaac's invention debate   Thu Aug 18, 2011 8:27 am

I am going to re-open this program...

Firstly, the KI's post about the whole... being more powerful than nuclear bomb... and having affecting Earth's core....

A, I find it sort of godmoding in progress... B, that seems futuristic... and C, if you pass all those, it will gain OMC-val of 13: apocalyptic. If that is the case... well, just telling you, Oscal probably won't stick around to see you launch that.



Regardless... KI, maybe you just need to read up on these stuff. Here... it is wiki article about what you are working on:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kinetic_bombardment

That was the article that Isis directed me to... read up on it, and let me know what you think.
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PostSubject: Re: KingIsaac's invention debate   Thu Aug 18, 2011 8:35 am

Oscal, The "effect on outer core" is just to scare countries even as big as you. Joke.

Ok. That "core thing" was just for show. It wouldn't really have an effect on the core. Only on the mantle of the Earth.

Of course it SHOULD be powerful than nuclear weapons. Why create such an expensive thing if a less expensive nuclear weapon can have the same effect?

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PostSubject: Re: KingIsaac's invention debate   Thu Aug 18, 2011 8:40 am

The interception rate, obviously...

The ICBM can EASILY be intercepted. Well... at least for Oscal. Any military power has interception ability to intercept missiles. However, orbital bombardment... well, you cannot exactly intercept the bomb once it strikes down. Possibility to do that is zero. Sure, you can tweak the trajectory if you discover it fast enough by hitting it with something at certain angles, but all in all, it is heck of a lot more effective.
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PostSubject: Re: KingIsaac's invention debate   Thu Aug 18, 2011 10:28 am

Yes, besides from the fact that it is more powerful

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